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Nerfing Classes in Shadowlands is the talk amongst the PvP & PvE community. We have seen changes to classes like Hunters and Rogues due to their performance in both Arena & Raid; however, I fear that this is only the beginning. I did my best to warn the community of this happening, and now we can expect classes like Balance Druids, Retribution Paladins, and Arms Warriors to be next. However, I think players fail to realize that so many classes have incredible strengths that will be revealed in time following additional nerfs. In order to maintain a balanced meta in the current state of Shadowlands, it’s important for the community to be patient and realize what they are asking for. Additionally, Blizzard must change their approach to balancing classes when trying to appeal to the general PvP community.
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0:00 Intro
0:39 Rogue Nerfs
1:54 Ion Interview
2:23 How To Nerf
4:22 Pikaboo Post
5:36 Rogue Performance
6:52 Overreaction
8:06 Adjustments
8:26 Clarify
9:05 Blaming Casuals
11:48 Loud Majority
12:34 Dampening Change
13:51 Transparent
Source
The point of this video is to show that the approach to nerfing Classes in WoW is wrong. No where did I say rogues are bad or that the nerfs are not justified. You can make frequent changes to get to the same place. But they need to be incremental or with the understanding that if they go too far, they can be reverted. I hope people can see beyond that. The fact is, I hate rogues lol. I hate queuing into rogue mage in 3s. But I can still look beyond that, and want to hold blizzard accountable in their approach to balancing. Again, I'd advise you watch the entire video if you want to get an accurate picture of what is being discussed.
all the lame flavor of the month dummies getting what the deserve. blizz used rogues to help hype the expac. now they will all run to the new flavor, warrior or ww.
Just put this man in charge of pvp! Come on, Ian.
The message of this video is good but the examples you give are such shit takes.
Word of Glory does need nerfing as it currently has no drawbacks. Ret's are not a consistent damage class, they don't need their holy power between burst windows in order to succeed. It's the off-healing between goes that needs to be nerfed.
Feral's and Enhance both have drawbacks to their off-heals.
For Enhance, it costs 1/4 of their mana bar, means they sacrifice damage and requires them to hit with auto-attacks to generate the maelstrom stacks.
For Feral, predator's swiftness does not enhance the strength of regrowth and is purgeable.
Also, reread that guys tweet. He says reduce absorb, increase CD and reduce damage reduction. That is literally what the spell does:
"Fight through the pain, ignoring 50% of damage taken, up to [(0 + Attack power * 3.5) * (1 + Versatility)] total damage prevented."
It reduces and absorbs damage, yet you're calling him out for not knowing what the spell does?
Thirdly, cmon man. Yes the rogue nerfs were heavy-handed and softer, incremental nerfs are better than overnerfing everything at once, but your suggestion is reducing echoing reprimand by 10% at a time and that's the only nerfs? It would take 4-5 weeks to get rogues in line using your suggestion as the baseline for methodology.
This entire video is just so yikes. Pointing fingers at the community, saying they don't understand the game and have bad takes, putting yourself on a pedestal whilst doing exactly the same thing that you claim the community is doing.
Yikes.
was a deserved nerf doesnt make sense im getting 2 shot by a rogue when i have iceborne active and im a plate wearer feels really good that
QQ
i work in a game studio and i've seen this "over nerf" approach constantly. This is my guess on it and it may not be true but it happens more often than u think.
Okey, so we have a few designers doing pvp balance, 40% of those people actually plays pvp comprehensively, the rest either don't play or they don't play nearly enough. Community guy is constantly reporting compalints about sub rogues, the 40% of designer feel we should give it time, take incremental changes and also keep watching the new soulbind progress/other class performance over-time, because they have a vision of a balanced pvp in the long run. The 60% designer however, they just want the complaints gone, because they don't get that vision and they got paid anyways.
Now it's Christmas time, a good bit of designers took vacation, and suddnely we have 20% designer that pvps comprehensively, and 80% designer that don't. The 80% see complaints of rogues again, and they just want a safe christmas period, so they push through this "safe idea" in their mind, which just guts rogues and of cuz it kills complaints, and they go home have a good holiday. It's nothing about makin the game better, it's all about having a peaceful christmas time, and sacrificing the rogue players abit so ALL other classes are happy. If u think from their perspectives, it's such a perfect deal isn't it?
So things happens this way.
They made rogue viable instead of overpowered. It’s a balance, not a nerf.
a 50% nerf to that ability did equal out into a 8-12% nerf in their burst…
Thanks, Stoopzz
How stupid this hype is. Just because everybody saw in beta, that this class is OP and started to play rogue. And now they’re all crying, WTFing, because they lost godmode.
Warriors lost 50% of mortal strike in pvp and no one cares. But godlike rogues – yeah it’s a problem.
Im happy rogue got nerfed, a shit class that burst you while doesnt let you play (perma stun, vanish etc) is a bad concept and shouldnt exist in the game, I would be even more happy if they just delete it tho
Just delete the class LOL just remove the rouges from wow lmaoooooo
All joking aside ROUGES DONT NEED A BLACK AND WHITE 50% nerf, just their ability to kill you in 3 globals while under a 4 second stun
no one is going to listen to you man, sorry, just like people not staying home and wearing masks and spreading covid
Sub rogue nerf wasn't too bad, still deleting people. Why the hell did they nerf sin though???
idk that interven nerf which he pointed out is quite stupid… here is how its supposed to be. 20 sec cd which equals spells like kidney.. taking 1 cast yep.. and duration doesnt matter at all when it takes only 1 cast.. as rogue in wotlk basicly u shiv the intervene off and still got ur sap´s and blinds on the heal.. so its either u pay the attention as the one facing the warr, to weave in other spells to take the intervene and its also alot more skillcap for the warr.. this is what a good nerf would be .. and arms was still one of the greatest specs in wotlk x) *edit also the range thing in intervene should be completly deleted.. there u go perfect intervene
buffing everything wont help tbh.. its just everybody is 1shotting everything .. i started a rogue bymyself.. i´m 185 geard now .. i literally 15k dps on openers.. just 1shotted a 32k life monk idk his gear obviously but it was alot more than mine.. 17k dps in opener his first global was trinket karma also his healer did trinket.. i just keep dpsing him and duel him basicly globald him no counter play possible .. increasing everyones dmg will make things like this even worse.. there should be nerfs and buffs , not only trying to make other specs overtuned aswell.. basicly this game was never ever balanced because it isnt possible to balance it .. all ppl crying now taking dmg from sub´s making it not viable.. i mean what is that complain? sub is the spec which grants most control in the arena his dmg hasnt to be ultra high..
Im with you all the way my man!
Elite players PVP or PVE forget that it’s only on account of casual players that they have the game they love if it wasn’t for the casual majority WOW wouldn’t make money and would not exist no gaming company would put that amount of time and effort into a money pit for a few gamers who don’t make them money
I feel like as a community we need to take everything in full.
Why is no one bitching about prot pallies mana pool or the fact a tank in arenas is viable?
Can we complain about covenant choices alienating each other from guilds and friends that heavily favor a specific covenant?
I can only imagine how difficult finding groups would be if I didn’t specify “Unhinged, Kyrian Warrior” wasn’t whispered to each leader
I mean even after the nerf if your trinket is on cd then a rogue can still 100-0 you in 3 seconds…they need another nerf. I love fast pace pvp but another nerf is needed for that class maybe others like Ret pala healing
What happens with MW its bad since start of SL
Word of glory as prot is completely absurd lol
hunters got worse pvp nerfs
yeah thanks the pvp community is in your debt bro
Tbh I still think sub rogues are still way overtuned. I hate getting stunned for 7 seconds but dying in 2 crits. I don't have the best great right now but this rogue hit me 2 times for 8k each hit within like 2 seconds. The rogue had a low ilvl as well. The mix of this insane burst plus unlimited amount of stuns is what makes them so overwhelming. Get stunned for 3 seconds, then 2, then 6 then even if you trinket they stick to you. They get in trouble they have more defensives than most plate classes lol. And they can vanish get a full reset and do it all again
I agree that heavy nerfs would be a poor common practice for blizzard. However, they don't leave much room for small incrimintal nerfs when they release batshit crazy specs like sub rogue was. A 10% nerf would have been laughably ineffective. The spec is still performing great, well designed or not.
Hey blizz I've killed a rogue in 1v1 pre nerf. When is my nerf coming?
Blizzard needs to watch this video simply for the breaking down the whys of nerfs.
I kinda like the dampening change. It gives the healers a chance to do something even though it doesn't mean you'll be alive when 20% dampening arrives. You can still lose in the opener with 0% dampening or survive with 30% dampening. I prefer quick games too but it's more rewarding to win through a good cc setup than through dampening. Also if you look at the healers perspective, starting with a 20% healing debuff to being useless a few minutes later is discouraging.
The nerfs were warranted in this case. You can't just buff every other class up to those levels of stupidity. Sub was just at the level of OP as corruptions where in BfA.
The real issues isn't that blizzard nerfed them to hard. The real issue is that blizzard over tuned them that much in the first place, that they needed to be nerf this hard to bring them in line. And even then they're still killing people from 100 to zero in a single stun.
SL is broken, not fun and still dominated by pve gear the end. Don't buy Shadowlands.
it isnt difficult to balance sub delete shadowblades and its fixed.
As a rogue main for 12 years I prefer the class being nerfed so people don't complain about it. Rogue is a hard class that should reward high mechanical skill and game knowledge. There is only 1 thing currently that needs tunin imo and that is as you said ret/sham/feral healing. Currently it is too much and it should get lowered. I am not saying to completley nerf it to the ground but a 14k word of glory heal in 46% damp is not ok imo.
The game is literally better when rogues are bad. It’s more fun to play your class and get killed by damage or kill them by damage then it is to be CC’d for an hour and killed in a stun lock. Seeing rogues get destroyed is amazing.
It would be so fun to play for every class if every class was good at what makes the class different. For sub rogue the trade off is backstabbing for 45 seconds for 1% of their health energy starved to get 6-12seconds of burst.
Blizzard had plenty of time to correct this, they saw the numbers, but let it go live. They have IP they can't manage.
People just need to get better at the game. Yea I agree with what you’re saying 100%
I get stuff needs to be nerfed. There is also ways around things. Like convoke for example… you can stun it, kick it, or los if need be. And if they get that set up on you… damn learn from it. Idk, don’t see why people complain so much. Not saying stuff doesn’t need to be nerfed and other classes should definitely be buffed. MM Hunter is crazy! Los them as much as you can lol. Don’t complain about the shit… just my opinion
"Nobody should play the game in fear of their class being gutted" all the demon hunters crying in the corner
One of the most balanced and smart video around these days.
Im agree with “players are scarry”.. Im playin warrior like plus 10years, i can say after cata, this is the golden age for warrior for pvp, but when i saw sub rog nerf, i said okey, next hammer for warrior. Minor nerf and try first, do not destroy the class or spec like this. Specialy, rogue one-shot was weird really need to nerf but like this. Or if u wanna nerf high burst, you should buff dps with other way. Buff main dps skills %5 will be good and buff kurian ability %10. And first of they should buff underperform specs before nerf. Mwmonk is deleted, asas rog same, dh is verry verry low, furry no need to talk, but mwmonk is soo soo bad they need to revive them first. Then you can looking for minör nerfs. Why deleting class. I dont want to change my class or spec for ners and i dont wanna feell scarry to waiting for nerf. Dot hard nerf blizz