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I spent a many hours painting my Necron army a year ago. I got crushed in the 1st few rounds in all 5 games. My 1st 2 game lasted 15 min. My next couple game were al little longer because I was moving slower. That experience as not fun alt all. So I quit and have not played since. Sad because I would love to play again.
The problem isn't the balance. The problem is shitty rules. First and foremost the IgoUgo. Just make it into alternate activations. It would solve SO much. No waiting half an hour for your opponent to roll their 100 dice for their repulsor. Also rules incoherence like taking away DR from Death Guard to reduce dice rolling but letting other factions keep a similar ability that makes you roll more dice. I don't care for balance. but the rules turn even narrative games into a slog. I had moments were I just quit the game because I couldn't stand the idea of waiting for my opponent to get his frickin' shooting done.
Fritz, I have been watching you for a few years now, and really appreciate your approach to these videos. Would you consider following other systems? I feel like based on your tactics discussions, you would really enjoy Parabellum Conquest. It is effectively a rank and flank system, utilizing alternating activations based on a command stack (how you active your units), then the battle progresses where light units (militia etc) come into the field first, then mediums, and heavy's based on a reinforcement line.
I'm effectively done from purchasing anything else from GW for AoS or 40K, feel like I'm the not target audience anymore for those type of games. I can see why folks may like that, but I prefer having tactics due to maneuvering versus a combo from a hero or not getting the first turn.
These days it seems to of shifted about trying to make a meta team rather then just a cool army you wanted to play with. Well this is half the problem isnt it? Play games to have fun, winning is great, but clearing up every time becomes boring. Especially when you kill the game group itself because no one wants to play with such try hards all the time. Try different tactics and army lists, make it interesting. Its exactly the same as the card and computer games these days. Kids don't play for fun, they can only play to win, which is sad.
I feel the state of the game right before 9th edition dropped, was the closest we had to a balanced, competitive meta.
Almost all the armies were viable, with the exception of a few stinkers, it's just that some armies were just better at doing certain things over another, but that "weaker" army could still win against a supposedly better army.
You are mistaken, GW is now a videogame company. That’s how they are making real money. They could stop making rules and models tomorrow and they would barely take a hit, financially. They are just trying to milk the wargame cow as long as possible before 3d printing will make it obsolete
If you play warhammer with the narrative and to have fun in mind then fairness doesn't matter, your there too have fun and make a story. But tournament is a whole diffirent ballpark and holds the communities most toxic people and traits.
The Renaissance of the 3d printing scene made me take the plunge into GW'S old Warmaster game. Very well balanced now that it's NOT supported by Gdubs. All the rules changes are made and maintained by a public rules committee that is passionate about making the game as enjoyable as possible.
i know you are looking at this from a player’s view who wants to play narrative armies and i won’t say you are completely wrong, but 9th edition is not about killing your opponent. if you play the new 9th mission packs and set up good terrain (many LoS blocking terrain features), you wont get tabled..and its not only about killing. some daemon lists win without killing the half of their opponent’s army. its about holding objectives and scoring other objectives that YOU SELECT. so if you know your army well, you will select good options and you gon always stand a chance against any army. you just need to play proper! the gap between players like you (narrative) and competitive players gon always be big. but a tournament player could beat you with a bad army like tyranids when you play space marines cause he got the skill and experience and deeply understands the mission packs gw really tries to fix the game in some ways via missions as you asked for. the thing is space marines will always be a little better than any other faction but necrons are certainly able to compete with them and i guess death guard will be too in order to get a balanced game, you and your opponent have to operate on the same level of skills. seen it with friends, i was gettin into competitive 40k and now i beat them with ‚fluffy‘ armies (which are on their level and could never compete at a tournament) cause i know the missions and my units so well. further, skill in movement, screening, EXACT PREMEASUREMENT, etc is sooo important and people underestimate it and of course, gw is driven by money… so there will also be an imbalance to the game cause its in their interest. so people buy new models and also competitive players ‚break’ the codices if cause they read it in a different and more effectiveness-oriented way than a casual player soo maybe competitive players playtesting the game is not bad, as we get codices which do not have loopholes and ridiculous combos in it. for example, the new space marine book is worse than the previous one in many ways!! still strong but they addressed some issues like fight twice strats for all units or the grav-amp stratagem trust me, it will get better and more balanced in 9th! they know that some armies need a re-design to fit into the rule set and requirements we face in 9th. and the new missions are awesome!! CAUSE ITS NOT JUST BOUT KILLIN STUFF but thats just my opinion. have a good evening 😀
Oh my god dude, your idea to balance the game is to introduce MORE variables? If they can't balance factions against one another why would they be able to balance two factions fighting one another on top of a volcano where one faction is being rained on by random chunks of molten lava. Narrative encounters are NOT balanced – by DESIGN. You have made a video about balance and didn't mention the word "meta" once. What a joke.
9th so far looks like a good attempt at balance, though if anything it looks like an attempt to start selling terrain feature models. I don't think they should make terrain type and placement up to the players also, tbh.
I don’t want the game to be 100% balanced, but man, it really gets annoying when I’m a chaos space marine player, still looking at my 8th codex (when space marines… the faction that my army literally was a part of) gets 3 new sets of rules in that same time frame. Also, when firstborn marines in the imperium, are literally 2 times as durable as the same firstborn marines in chaos. Every Imperium space marine chapter is getting fleshed out with their own supplements, improving on their rules and giving them new units, where the chaos legions are just a difference in legion traits (which are one sentence worth of rules when SM gets 2 lines of rules per chapter) and a couple stratagems. In fact, certain legions, like world eaters, lose the ability to take many HQs due to psychers not being allowed without gaining really any other units to replace them. I just wish GW gave as much love for the fluff to the other factions as they do space marines. As a chaos space marine player it just feels terrible when lore wise my marines should be on a similar power level as their marines. Maybe even stronger in some aspects.
Yeah. Pay to win. I enjoy the narrative. But, frankly, even that's been hard to enjoy ever since Primaris. I feel Primaris butchered the lore to push more product.
The Force Organisation Chart and Rarity Caps, used to ensure that people didn’t spam uber powerful units. And GW used to modify that chart for themed armies liked Saim Heim would be allowed extra Fast Attack choices, instead of Heavy Attack choices. It actually worked pretty well. Once they removed it (I think in 6th/7th) and they tried to replace it with command benefits, they never quite made the negatives for going outside the FOC as bad as the positives, and it became like the Wild West for a while. Command points in 8th did a good job. Truth is, you’re never going to balance a game with so many units. 40K has a rock, paper, scissors quality now. Some people like the carnage of it all. Some are returning to earlier versions of the game. 2nd edition is having a renaissance right now. Just check out the Facebook group. And this is a problem GW is going to have to address at some point. Players are beginning to ‘stop’ playing their game, but collectors are pootling along as normal, at the moment! But I believe collectors still only invest in armies based on there being a game behind it. If that game effectively dies due to neglect, the black hole left might swallow the hobby around it. Or, players will start to take the game into their own hands and fix it themselves… like people returning to 2nd edition or other editions. This could back fire on GW though, as there are no rules for new models, and it empowers the secondary model market over sourcing from the mothership.
Also, you don’t mention it in your video, but I suspect GW has been braking their game for years, to push people into buying the next edition (which I’ve stopped doing now). For me the 7th basic rule set was the best (aside from a few tweaks), but at the end of 7th GW started cramming stupid bolt on rules and formations which caused the game to collapse. Yay for 8th right? Well, 8th was kinda successful. I bought it, but never played it. 9th I probably won’t but at all. And so people start falling out of the game. Less people = Harder to find opponents = more people dropping out of the game = more people dropping out/not getting involved with the hobby. Maybe?
A lot of your complaints I kinda like to be honest, but then again I just REALLY enjoy painting so having something new to paint is always a win for me lol. Also, I feel like you're making it out to be a little worse than it actually is. An example would be how when 9th came out and everyone learned about the "blast" rules, people were losing their shit over how "this is the end of all horde armies! RIP Orks, nids, etc." yet not too long ago several people have either won, or placed very highly at GT's with horde armies, or armies that ignored the risks of taking larger sized troop choices. I've also heard many people make the observation that 9th is much more balanced than the game has been (which is evident because I'm seeing plenty of previously named "doo-doo" armies do well at GT's). I still agree with the point of some asshat taking a comp list against a thematic list or a noob is still a complete dick move, but now when two competent people go head to head with the intention of winning, the game seems more balanced than ever from what I've seen and heard. Does it suck that GW pays more attention to their poster-boys instead of updating some armies that could really use it? Sure, but with some of the recent changes and whatnot in the past couple of years, I think there's reason to hold onto hope for a little longer. That said if all of 2021 passes without a decent update or overhaul to at least one or two xenos/chaos armies, I'm grabbing my pitchfork xD
Xenos fall in to line? When was the last time eldar weren't OP? Closest to it was 5th, when they didnt have a book, and were just good, but worse vs best armies. Every other edition eldar dunked on all marines.
40k hasn’t been more balanced since 3rd.
I spent a many hours painting my Necron army a year ago. I got crushed in the 1st few rounds in all 5 games. My 1st 2 game lasted 15 min. My next couple game were al little longer because I was moving slower. That experience as not fun alt all. So I quit and have not played since. Sad because I would love to play again.
Can anybody recommend good places for homebrew 40K rules? Anywhere that gives examples and tips etc.
The problem isn't the balance. The problem is shitty rules. First and foremost the IgoUgo. Just make it into alternate activations. It would solve SO much. No waiting half an hour for your opponent to roll their 100 dice for their repulsor. Also rules incoherence like taking away DR from Death Guard to reduce dice rolling but letting other factions keep a similar ability that makes you roll more dice.
I don't care for balance. but the rules turn even narrative games into a slog. I had moments were I just quit the game because I couldn't stand the idea of waiting for my opponent to get his frickin' shooting done.
Fritz, I have been watching you for a few years now, and really appreciate your approach to these videos. Would you consider following other systems? I feel like based on your tactics discussions, you would really enjoy Parabellum Conquest. It is effectively a rank and flank system, utilizing alternating activations based on a command stack (how you active your units), then the battle progresses where light units (militia etc) come into the field first, then mediums, and heavy's based on a reinforcement line.
I'm effectively done from purchasing anything else from GW for AoS or 40K, feel like I'm the not target audience anymore for those type of games. I can see why folks may like that, but I prefer having tactics due to maneuvering versus a combo from a hero or not getting the first turn.
GW makes miniatures not games. 40k and Fantasy have not been balanced as a game,ever. They won’t start now.
These days it seems to of shifted about trying to make a meta team rather then just a cool army you wanted to play with. Well this is half the problem isnt it?
Play games to have fun, winning is great, but clearing up every time becomes boring. Especially when you kill the game group itself because no one wants to play with such try hards all the time.
Try different tactics and army lists, make it interesting.
Its exactly the same as the card and computer games these days. Kids don't play for fun, they can only play to win, which is sad.
Real Life isnt fair and No Game with releasing scedules like 40K or AoS can ever be 100% fair.
There needs to be another two new factions IMO. Add variety, increase sales, increase interest etc.
I feel the state of the game right before 9th edition dropped, was the closest we had to a balanced, competitive meta.
Almost all the armies were viable, with the exception of a few stinkers, it's just that some armies were just better at doing certain things over another, but that "weaker" army could still win against a supposedly better army.
Plague Marines $51 per box of 5. Oh, wait, new Plague Marine rules? $180 per box of 5 please.
You are mistaken, GW is now a videogame company. That’s how they are making real money. They could stop making rules and models tomorrow and they would barely take a hit, financially. They are just trying to milk the wargame cow as long as possible before 3d printing will make it obsolete
40K is utter shit. Thats why i play malifaux, its all about the scenarios
If you play warhammer with the narrative and to have fun in mind then fairness doesn't matter, your there too have fun and make a story. But tournament is a whole diffirent ballpark and holds the communities most toxic people and traits.
The Renaissance of the 3d printing scene made me take the plunge into GW'S old Warmaster game. Very well balanced now that it's NOT supported by Gdubs. All the rules changes are made and maintained by a public rules committee that is passionate about making the game as enjoyable as possible.
i know you are looking at this from a player’s view who wants to play narrative armies and i won’t say you are completely wrong, but 9th edition is not about killing your opponent. if you play the new 9th mission packs and set up good terrain (many LoS blocking terrain features), you wont get tabled..and its not only about killing. some daemon lists win without killing the half of their opponent’s army. its about holding objectives and scoring other objectives that YOU SELECT. so if you know your army well, you will select good options and you gon always stand a chance against any army. you just need to play proper!
the gap between players like you (narrative) and competitive players gon always be big. but a tournament player could beat you with a bad army like tyranids when you play space marines cause he got the skill and experience and deeply understands the mission packs
gw really tries to fix the game in some ways via missions as you asked for. the thing is space marines will always be a little better than any other faction but necrons are certainly able to compete with them and i guess death guard will be too
in order to get a balanced game, you and your opponent have to operate on the same level of skills. seen it with friends, i was gettin into competitive 40k and now i beat them with ‚fluffy‘ armies (which are on their level and could never compete at a tournament) cause i know the missions and my units so well.
further, skill in movement, screening, EXACT PREMEASUREMENT, etc is sooo important and people underestimate it
and of course, gw is driven by money… so there will also be an imbalance to the game cause its in their interest. so people buy new models and
also competitive players ‚break’ the codices if cause they read it in a different and more effectiveness-oriented way than a casual player
soo maybe competitive players playtesting the game is not bad, as we get codices which do not have loopholes and ridiculous combos in it. for example, the new space marine book is worse than the previous one in many ways!!
still strong but they addressed some issues like fight twice strats for all units or the grav-amp stratagem
trust me, it will get better and more balanced in 9th! they know that some armies need a re-design to fit into the rule set and requirements we face in 9th. and the new missions are awesome!! CAUSE ITS NOT JUST BOUT KILLIN STUFF
but thats just my opinion. have a good evening 😀
Oh my god dude, your idea to balance the game is to introduce MORE variables? If they can't balance factions against one another why would they be able to balance two factions fighting one another on top of a volcano where one faction is being rained on by random chunks of molten lava. Narrative encounters are NOT balanced – by DESIGN. You have made a video about balance and didn't mention the word "meta" once. What a joke.
9th so far looks like a good attempt at balance, though if anything it looks like an attempt to start selling terrain feature models. I don't think they should make terrain type and placement up to the players also, tbh.
I don’t want the game to be 100% balanced, but man, it really gets annoying when I’m a chaos space marine player, still looking at my 8th codex (when space marines… the faction that my army literally was a part of) gets 3 new sets of rules in that same time frame. Also, when firstborn marines in the imperium, are literally 2 times as durable as the same firstborn marines in chaos. Every Imperium space marine chapter is getting fleshed out with their own supplements, improving on their rules and giving them new units, where the chaos legions are just a difference in legion traits (which are one sentence worth of rules when SM gets 2 lines of rules per chapter) and a couple stratagems. In fact, certain legions, like world eaters, lose the ability to take many HQs due to psychers not being allowed without gaining really any other units to replace them. I just wish GW gave as much love for the fluff to the other factions as they do space marines. As a chaos space marine player it just feels terrible when lore wise my marines should be on a similar power level as their marines. Maybe even stronger in some aspects.
Yeah. Pay to win. I enjoy the narrative. But, frankly, even that's been hard to enjoy ever since Primaris. I feel Primaris butchered the lore to push more product.
The Force Organisation Chart and Rarity Caps, used to ensure that people didn’t spam uber powerful units.
And GW used to modify that chart for themed armies liked Saim Heim would be allowed extra Fast Attack choices, instead of Heavy Attack choices.
It actually worked pretty well.
Once they removed it (I think in 6th/7th) and they tried to replace it with command benefits, they never quite made the negatives for going outside the FOC as bad as the positives, and it became like the Wild West for a while.
Command points in 8th did a good job.
Truth is, you’re never going to balance a game with so many units. 40K has a rock, paper, scissors quality now.
Some people like the carnage of it all. Some are returning to earlier versions of the game. 2nd edition is having a renaissance right now. Just check out the Facebook group.
And this is a problem GW is going to have to address at some point.
Players are beginning to ‘stop’ playing their game, but collectors are pootling along as normal, at the moment!
But I believe collectors still only invest in armies based on there being a game behind it.
If that game effectively dies due to neglect, the black hole left might swallow the hobby around it.
Or, players will start to take the game into their own hands and fix it themselves… like people returning to 2nd edition or other editions.
This could back fire on GW though, as there are no rules for new models, and it empowers the secondary model market over sourcing from the mothership.
Also, you don’t mention it in your video, but I suspect GW has been braking their game for years, to push people into buying the next edition (which I’ve stopped doing now).
For me the 7th basic rule set was the best (aside from a few tweaks), but at the end of 7th GW started cramming stupid bolt on rules and formations which caused the game to collapse.
Yay for 8th right?
Well, 8th was kinda successful.
I bought it, but never played it.
9th I probably won’t but at all.
And so people start falling out of the game.
Less people = Harder to find opponents = more people dropping out of the game = more people dropping out/not getting involved with the hobby.
Maybe?
A lot of your complaints I kinda like to be honest, but then again I just REALLY enjoy painting so having something new to paint is always a win for me lol.
Also, I feel like you're making it out to be a little worse than it actually is. An example would be how when 9th came out and everyone learned about the "blast" rules, people were losing their shit over how "this is the end of all horde armies! RIP Orks, nids, etc." yet not too long ago several people have either won, or placed very highly at GT's with horde armies, or armies that ignored the risks of taking larger sized troop choices.
I've also heard many people make the observation that 9th is much more balanced than the game has been (which is evident because I'm seeing plenty of previously named "doo-doo" armies do well at GT's). I still agree with the point of some asshat taking a comp list against a thematic list or a noob is still a complete dick move, but now when two competent people go head to head with the intention of winning, the game seems more balanced than ever from what I've seen and heard. Does it suck that GW pays more attention to their poster-boys instead of updating some armies that could really use it? Sure, but with some of the recent changes and whatnot in the past couple of years, I think there's reason to hold onto hope for a little longer.
That said if all of 2021 passes without a decent update or overhaul to at least one or two xenos/chaos armies, I'm grabbing my pitchfork xD
What are your thoughts about 9th ed Crusade?
Xenos fall in to line? When was the last time eldar weren't OP? Closest to it was 5th, when they didnt have a book, and were just good, but worse vs best armies. Every other edition eldar dunked on all marines.
I can hear the neckbeard in his voice
Adeptus Titanicus is also easier to balance, cause there are only a few models, who are used by every faction
Fritz! Love you
I worked for GW in the 90s , it was basically pay to play all the way back then . Explicitly so at the retail level .
Ok I admit it , i play orks as a dice pool army ssssshhhhhhh don't tell the meta chasers